Host Dr. James Flowers, Co-Host Robin French, and VIP Guest Meredith Sonetz discuss how and why Meredith got into the field of recovery. Meredith shares her expertise on the evolution of the family intervention and how important it is to have a comprehensive diagnostic evaluation to determine the proper diagnosis prior to entering treatment. Meredith educates the audience on all of the various “hats” she wears as an interventionist and how important it is to keep your skillset sharp with continued training. Meredith has a private practice “Heartfelt Recovery” in the western suburbs of Chicago but travels all over the country for her clients/families.
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Listen to the podcast here
The Evolution Of The Family Intervention With Meredith Sonetz [Episode 18]
Please join us every week for a new episode of Understanding the Human Condition with Dr. James Flowers. Dr. Flowers and his most admired mentors, respected colleagues, and VIP guests will share valuable insight into underlying health causes, conditions, and issues. These in-depth yet approachable episodes are a great resource for both private individuals and industry professionals. Our esteemed host, Dr. James Flowers, is one of the most recognized and respected names in the field of chronic pain, mental health, and substance use disorders, both nationally and internationally. Dr. Flowers is the founder of J. Flowers Health Institute, located in Houston, Texas.
For more information about J. Flowers Health Institute and its concierge services, go to JFlowersHealth.com or dial 713-783-6655 and be sure to mention this podcast.
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Welcome to Understanding the Human Condition with your host, Dr. James Flowers.
Robbin.
How are you?
I am great. I am super good because we have one of my best colleague friends and one of my best friends in general, Meredith Sonetz.
Thank you for having me.
I’m so happy. You flew all the way from Chicago, and thank you for spending time with us to do that.
I’d like to read a little bio, if I may. I’m sure most folks know you, but for those who don’t, I thought I’d tell them a little bit about you, and they’ll learn more from you. Meredith is a certified licensed professional counselor with over eighteen years of experience, specializing in providing six-month support addressing addiction and behavioral health illnesses to individuals and families across the country. She helped create a relapse prevention track program and sober recovery coaching program. Meredith has a private practice in the western suburbs of Chicago, and it’s called Heartfelt Recovery.
It’s amazing, too. She does phenomenal work all over the country, and I personally have been able to help some of her families. Just the work that you do is so cool and amazing and helps so many families in Chicago and other places around the country. How did you get into this field? What brought you into the recovery field?
Getting Into Recovery
Growing up in a recovery alcoholic home, I have an understanding of what it means to be in that family dynamic, and then also having the gene being passed down to me. It really is an understanding. Through my years of being a stockbroker and then also a flight attendant, I didn’t really feel like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. I just wanted to do something when I grew up and had the spirit come through me.
My dad has passed on, and so through him, I feel that I can help families in giving and providing hope because there is hope. God willing, I’m 24 years in recovery. I did understand that I needed to walk before I ran, and so I did go back and get my master’s in counseling and my certifications and all of that through the years. I’m really passionate about what I do, and this is more than just a career or a job. It’s really a lifestyle.
It is. It’s so much. You are exactly right. I don’t feel like I work either. It’s just our lifestyle, what we do, seven days a week. We were at dinner, and I was like, if Meredith calls me at 10:00, I take that call. It’s just what we do.
We were talking about how she’s been bringing patients since you first started the J. Flowers Health Institute, and I was telling her way back then when there was only maybe three of you at the very beginning of the birth of this institute. What faith that had to be, and how you really believed in what you were doing. You want to explain a little bit more about that?
I remember us going and touring and just sitting over a balcony, and you were sharing your vision about what you were about to start, and I said, “Hallelujah,” because this is what we need. And there’s so many times within working with families about recommending certain treatment centers and such, and it’s really about getting that understanding and foundation first. Otherwise, this revolving door of going in and out of different levels of care, hoping that something will stick. Unless we have a foundation first of a true understanding of what the individual is going through, the family dynamic is experiencing, we can then, that’s the platform to move forward. But if we just keep guessing and all this guesswork, it’s going to be years and years that this individual has to potentially suffer, as well as the families.
It’s really about getting that understanding and foundation first. Otherwise, it will be this revolving door of going in and out of different levels of care hoping that something will stick.
Many of the patients that we see and that we have seen have been in multiple treatment centers. And when you go into a treatment center, and you’re placed in a treatment center anywhere in the country, the best treatment centers, and everything in between, best and the worst, is you go into treatment, and they start on day one, and they do a biopsych social, which is a light assessment. And then the psychiatrist visits for half an hour, 45 minutes, and makes the treatment plan with the team and medicates the patient sometimes. What Meredith recognizes is the depth of this comprehensive diagnosis really does form a foundation from which to leap off from, so that the treatment center has a very clear understanding of who they’re working with.
It’s so vital to start this way, because it doesn’t necessarily mean that everybody goes into residential. It could be that we start here, and we gain so much knowledge, and knowledge is power, which I really think empowers a lot of people. And then it could go into outpatient, or it could go into other types of services, but it doesn’t always have to go into residential treatment. This is so vital to start, so vital. And so I believe in that, and that’s the information that I share with my families when they come to me and they say, “Help.”
I love that. I was sharing with her that one of our other interventionists this morning said he was talking to a family in Canada, and he was telling them they needed to come to us, and they said, “I think we’re just going to try something locally.” He said, “Here’s the deal, you want to keep doing this, or you just want to do it one more time?” She said, “That’s what I tell my families.”
An Interventionist And Other Hats
That’s what we see. With all of the deep work that you do, and again, you and I have been able to share families, patients, or you’ve trusted us with some of your families and clients, but how does that deep work and the intervention work that you do, and the case management that you do with the families, it’s got to affect your own human condition. How have you seen it affect you as a human being, and as a provider? Do you get compassion fatigue? How does that work for you?
I think that I have to practice what I preach, and that’s very hard to do, but it is so important to be able to have, and for me, I’ve had to learn how to have quality versus quantity of time. If I can really focus on being present in certain moments, of just really scheduling a day, a half a day of time for myself. Also, I have a 16, 15, and 10-year-old, and so it’s very difficult not to be in their moments, because their moments are all over the place. But getting hugs from them and just being a part of their world in what they are dealing with, as a 16-year-old boy, a 15-year-old boy, and a 10-year-old daughter, they’re all over the place.
If I’m not on my toes in their moment, they’re running the show. It’s game over for me. I’m really focused on moments, and I’m focused on practicing scheduling time for myself. I have a fantastic therapist, and then I did some deep dive work in my own recovery this year. I did an intensive out in Colorado, and it was life-changing. I felt that in my own recovery, God willing, of 24 years, it’s always good to have different reboot-type things to be able to do, whether it’s retreats, or workshops, or intensives. I was able to give that gift to myself.
I happen to know the woman that you went to do it with, and her name is Jill Krush at Krush Counseling.
Shout out to Jill.
Thank you, Jill, for what you did for my own life and for Meredith. You and I didn’t do it at the same time, but what a powerful experience. Were you there for the three days?
Yes. I screamed, I cried, I laughed, I breathed, for almost the first time in some moments, that I didn’t realize I wasn’t breathing until I was breathing.
Anyone looking for a three-day trauma-intensive program, Jill Krush at Krush Counseling, and it’s Krush with a K. She’s amazing. I love her and the work that she did, and I’m really happy that you were able to go. A really good friend of ours is the one that told both of us about it, and that’s Kristin Ager up in Little Rock. Thank God for Kristin telling both of us, “Get your butts up over the boulder.”
Kicking our butts.
Exactly, because it was amazing work. I’m so proud that you did that, and that’s for our own compassion fatigue and our own lives. Staying healthy, we have to do our own work as well.
We have to, and it shows. It will catch up with us, and families will recognize that and walk all over us if we don’t. We are not doing them a service if we don’t do our own work, and so I’m very passionate about that. It’s hard.
We were talking about this too, how being in the positions that you’re in, your jobs are different than a lot of other jobs. You can’t turn those phones off after 5:00. You have to take those calls after hours, in the middle of the night, and it can take its toll on your personal relationships. I also wanted to talk a little bit more about all the different pieces of you because what you do, there’s all these different roles. Can you tell the audience a little bit more about all those different hats so that a listener can say, “I’m going to call her because I do need to talk to her about this or that?”
On the front end of levels of care or treatment, I help families with consultation. I help families if they are interested in an intervention, and sometimes it’s not an intervention that they need. They just need some coaching or a family weekend and time and a plan. I work with families on the front end, and then we come together. I gather history, and if, in fact, a family meeting intervention is what is required, then I am a clinically licensed professional counselor and interventionist. I will travel across the country, working with families in which to put together a family meeting that is of love, care, respect, honor, and dignity. There’s no shame, blame, or attacking.
It’s really important about empowering the entire family system about moving forward. If in fact, it is about getting them to Dr. Flowers or a level of care, then we talk about that prior to, and there’s a lot of preparation that goes into that family meeting prior to having an actual family meeting. Oftentimes, I will call Dr. Flowers, and I will say, “I’m meeting with this family, and I need you to dial in,” and he’s there. He makes himself available, and that’s so valuable for me. It’s so appreciated by the families I work with.
It’s really important to empower the entire family system about moving forward.
Having that relationship with Dr. Flowers is really a key component for a lot of the family meetings that I do. Upon bringing them to Dr. Flowers to start the assessments and such, I can travel with the family members and the individuals in a clinically safe manner. I do a lot of clinical transport. Sometimes, families don’t need me to do an intervention, but they need somebody to get their loved ones safe. Because of my background as a former flight attendant and having knowledge around the industry, as well as my clinical background, I’m able to provide safe transport and companionship to get them to whatever level of care they need at that time.
Awesome.
I allow treatment and assessments to do what they need to do while still staying involved. Then, on the back end, I will either clinically transport them to where their next environment might take them, or be recommended. I can also provide family coaching or individual coaching on the back end.
Gotcha.
Something you said that we both know about each other is we both really value continuing education and learning. Honing our skills and being the best that we can be at our jobs, and helping the families with whom we work. You just took a training, as an example. You were talking about transporting clients, and you just took a whole training with Heather Hayes and Associates on clinical transport. Tell us what that is, and tell me something that you learned from that, because I sit and wonder, what do you learn in a transportation training? Some people just hop on a plane with a patient, and they can run. Run through the airport, they can leave.
Which I did learn, it was funny, you have to make sure on your checklist that the person you’re transporting is wearing flip-flops. I was just like, that makes a lot of sense.
It does.
Because you can’t run in flip-flops. After eighteen years of doing this, I’m like, that’s a great checklist.
You’re going to wear your flip-flops on this flight.
Or some slippery socks.
I like to always be refreshing my skills. I had gone through an intervention training with Dr. Debra and Jeff Jay out in Minnesota, and I did that two years ago on their Love First training. Then I just did Heather Hayes and Associates clinical transport training. I just really like to stay refreshed. I like to validate that I’m still doing what I’m supposed to be doing in an ethical, respectful, and loving and caring manner. So, it’s important for me to just stay current with everything and with colleagues around the nation, to be able to just continue doing the work that we all do.
Be well-respected because of it, you know?
Yeah.
Family System
I’m so excited. I learned something. If you don’t want the person you’re with to run, wear flip-flops.
Thank you, Heather.
I absolutely love that. You also came up with the title of this podcast, The Evolution of the Family Intervention, and you’ve done family programs for me and the treatment centers that I own. You work with families all the time. A while ago, you talked about the family system. Talk to us about your work with families and a family program that you might do, and why it’s important. So many people don’t understand. They think the patient is the one that needs treatment.
Oftentimes, it’s just, “Let’s just fix that patient or fix that loved one. That loved one has the problem, and as soon as the problem is fixed, then everything will be okay.” It’s really, truly much more involved with the family system. Somebody’s struggles carry down and affect everybody in the family dynamic, whether they’re living in that home or not, extended family, friends, employers, etc. When I get involved with a family, it’s about really doing a history gathering, a chronological timeline of really how their loved one has been struggling, and how we can help everybody in that system. The days of the straight alcoholic are no more. We are seeing that alcohol may just be a symptom.
What are those underlying issues that have affected everyone? It’s really about finding the support out there in all areas to be able to give this family dynamic the help and support they need. A lot of the interventions that I’m doing are about mental health interventions, the dual diagnosis, not just substance use. It’s really about a lot more complex issues that might be going on, eating disorder interventions, mental health interventions. I’ve done several interventions over the years that have nothing to do with substance use. It’s just been mental health and really getting their loved one and the families the help that they need.
Alcohol may just be a symptom. Find those underlying issues that have affected everyone.
Because a lot of the families are enabling them in so many ways. We were even talking about how a lot of times families will want them to stay local, but really, sometimes you need that separation, right?
Yes. Families sometimes can get very enmeshed, and the boundaries and the roles that are played within a family system can get very messy. It’s nice to be able to have, even for a time, to go and get assessed with Dr. Flowers, to be able to get away from that dynamic just for a little while, just to have some clarity of understanding what are appropriate boundaries, what are appropriate roles, what is being supported versus enabled. A lot of that becomes much clearer when they are removed for just even a short bit of time. Sometimes people feel scared about going away for 30, 60, 90 days, and that’s a stigma.
We really want to make sure that whatever level of care we are looking at can be about what is the most individualized, clinically appropriate recommendation for however long they may come. That’s why I do love Dr. Flowers and J. Flowers Health Institute, because they start with an assessment that can be anywhere from 7 to 14 days. In that amount of time, and with the intensity that they offer, it can give us such clarity of what’s needed for ongoing care.
I call it our little living behavioral MRI.
Stigma
When you finish, it’s going to be that clear. Talking about stigma, you lecture on a topic called Breaking Down the Stigma of the Intervention. What are the key points that you’d like people to know about the stigma in your lecture? What is the stigma?
Sometimes when I start that lecture, I don’t know if you remember the movie The Hangover Part 2, I think it was where they are all sitting around and they want him to go into treatment. They start reading, and he’s like, dumps over waters, and it’s kind of a little funny snippet. But we all sit there and laugh, and in our minds, we think, This is what an intervention is. It’s people all gathered around, reading the letters, all of that. When I work with families, I really want to make it just about a family discussion. There are some very key components that need to be put in place for preparation, but what we want to do is break down that stigma to where we really are here for love, care, and concern.
Not just concern for the individual, but concern for us. Like, why are we feeling anxiety? Why are we feeling stuck as the families? It’s about having a voice for everybody, to be able to be heard and validated, and to know that they don’t have to be alone. There are so many people within a family dynamic, whether a big family or a little family, that they’re around people but still feel so alone. How do we get in touch with them and provide them the support that they need, letting them know that they’re not alone and that there’s help out there? That’s why I stay around for six months, because it is important that they know that this journey, if they are willing and open to accept it, doesn’t have to be walked alone. I’m there the entire way, whether it’s for the families, the individuals, or hopefully for everybody together.
That’s awesome.
I noticed a while ago that I was looking down at our notes, and we skipped the very first question.
The Windy City one?
Yeah, so I want you to go back.
I was anxious to hear the answer to this.
How is the Windy City? Other than cold.
People think that the Windy City is named because of being off of a lake and the wind gusts that can get up there, but truly, and with the timing of the election or post-election, it’s because of the politicians and all the air and the promises.
A lot of people don’t know that.
I had no clue. I literally thought it was the lake effect.
It’s those puffed-up politicians.
Is that right? That’s so wild. What was the temperature yesterday in Chicago?
It’s 32 degrees.
It’s going to warm up this weekend for you.
It’s going to warm up for this weekend.
We were talking about Thanksgiving and the fun plans that you’re having with your family, just a few of you and outside for time above.
We had a big Thanksgiving plan, like I’m sure everybody has, and I had to rethink that for the safety of my kids and such. We are adapting, and we are going to have an outside, fun blanket fire pit and family gathering. We’ll be able to have some of our family together, but outside.
The cocoa, what did you call it?
The hot chocolate bar and a fire and blankets and just s’mores. All of that.
I love it.
And pots of funny stuff. I just asked my mom if she’d make the homemade macaroni and cheese. I’m hoping that comes.
That’s great.
That sounds good.
How many family members will you have?
I will have my brother and his children, and then my mom and stepdad, my kids, and my new partner.
What do you think the temperature will be on Thanksgiving Day?
I used to live there, for those who are listening, and it used to always snow the day before or the day of.
I always have the tradition of doing a turkey trot. My dad would always watch me run in the morning, and I have instilled that tradition into my kids.
Are we doing that this year?
Yeah. We can’t do the local organized one because it’s not happening, but we have a loop in our neighborhood that’s 3.2 miles, and I said that we are running that. My daughter asked if she could ride her bike. I said that’s fine, but all of us are going to be moving Thanksgiving morning, outside, layered up, or whatever.
COVID Effects
That is so fun. How has COVID affected the intervention world? How are you doing here? Is there a difference in the way in which you’re doing interventions this year?
Based upon the safety protocols, we are wearing masks. We are making sure that the groups we gather together for that family meeting are appropriate, where it’s cut off at a certain number of people based upon the space that’s available and then also, we will have incorporated a lot more zooming people to zoom in and FaceTime. I’ve even had to call the police on certain situations where they had known about exactly what to do. They had their masks, they had their gloves, and we had sanitizers throughout the space of everything. Everybody, whether it’s the first responders that I’m incorporating and collaborating with or the families, we all have prepared for that. The additional layer that we’ve had to include is preparing for the treatment centers that I would be taking the clients to. We have to know what the protocol is on that end.
There was a treatment center that needed to quarantine. I was in a hotel room with somebody for 40 hours while we were waiting for the test, and this was early on. It’s just, we have to do whatever we need to do in order to make sure. There was a treatment center in Texas, too, that wouldn’t accept any flights in from Chicago because Chicago was a hotspot. We had to drive, and we were able to make accommodations for a seventeen-hour ride. You do what you need to do in order to get your loved ones safe, but you have to follow all the protocols. It changes with each treatment center and each location across the country because some locations are shut down, and some are hotspots. Some are more open.
Question for both of you. Roses and thorns. What’s the best part of what you do? What’s the worst or hardest part of what you do? Roses, what’s the best part?
Seeing that there is hope and that people understand that there is hope and that they haven’t lost faith. I know that they haven’t lost faith because they’re calling and they’re asking for help. They do, deep down, believe that there is hope, so I love touching that piece.
What’s your thorns?
My thorn is that it’s hard work, and it’s a process. It’s not something that’s quick, and that can be really hard sometimes. Seeing that this disease of mental health and addiction is devastating and losing a client, a patient. I did lose somebody a year ago in January, and it took me to my knees.
I bet.
I know that it’s real, and I know that it is part of what we do, but it doesn’t have to be. I’m hopeful that there will be people who will listen to this and believe that.
How about you? What’s your roses? What’s the best part of what you do?
My answers are going to be so similar to Meredith’s because my roses are seeing the people who thrive, who leave, go to treatment, do well, get out, and just thrive in life. They put their past behind them, resolve their trauma, work on their addiction, and really live life to the fullest and happy. The worst part, the thorn part, again, Meredith knows someone, one of her clients died. This year, I think I’ve known seven or eight people that I personally know who have overdosed and died.
That’s the toughest part of this industry, losing friends. Meredith and I both lost a mutual friend last year together, a colleague and friend, and it’s just devastating. I think the takeaway is, I don’t care who you are, how much money you have, how little money you have, how high you’ve been, or how low you’ve been. This disease can kill you. If you don’t seek help, you’re just going to live a life of drama, trauma, unhealthiness, sadness, and sometimes death.
It doesn’t matter who you are, how much money you have, or how high you’ve been. This disease can kill you. If you don’t seek help, you’re going to live a life of drama, unhealthiness, sadness, and sometimes death.
Lighten it up a little bit. I know we only have a little bit of time here, but we wanted to know some fun things about you. What do you like to do for fun and leisure activities? What’s your go-to for that?
I love to travel. That’s always going to be embedded within my blood. I love the Green Bay Packers. I watch them, and I’m part of a fan fantasy football league this year.
Did you used to bundle up and go to those games?
My grandfather owned the season tickets.
Cold that you will never feel. It’s just unreal.
It’s the frozen tundra. Doesn’t get any better than that.
Speaking of liking to travel, Meredith and I, fingers crossed, prayers, are going to London. We’re not going together, but we’re going to see each other in London in February.
We are scheduled to both speak.
We’re both speaking in London. I think you asked if you could join.
I was like, let’s do a podcast there.
He’s going to go around. We can Zoom. It’s all good.
I wonder what Meredith is doing for Valentine’s Day this year.
I wonder.
Who knows?
What music is on your playlist? I think we talked about this earlier.
It’s a wide range. I can go from country to rock. I like Guns N’ Roses, all the way to Taylor Swift, to Garth Brooks, to Simon and Garfunkel. It’s just great.
Show them your T-shirt.
I’m a Pink Floyd fan too.
Thank you for joining us.
Thank you. Let’s see. I wanted to ask her one more. What’s on your bucket list that you haven’t done?
That’s a good one. Probably it’ll be to travel somewhere. I definitely want to go to Spain one of these days and see the Running of the Bulls.
That would be so fun. Thank you so much. This is amazing that you’ve literally flown from Chicago, Illinois, to Houston, Texas, to come visit us, have dinner, which was an amazing time spent with you, because I just cherish our friendship and working with you both personally and professionally, of course. I can’t wait until we can all see each other on the circuit again and go to conferences. Who knows when that’s going to be, but hopefully, I’ll see you in London.
If someone listening wants to reach you, how do they reach you via email or phone?
My website is www.HeartfeltRecovery.com, and so there is a link to be able to get my email through there. My cell phone is 312-890-8060.
Awesome.
Thank you, Meredith.
Thank you.
Thank you. Dr. Flowers, if they want to reach the J. Flowers Health Institute, how do they reach you?
Our phone number is 713-783-6655, and our website is www.JFlowersHealth.com.
Awesome.
Thank you, Robbin.
Thank you, Robbin.
Thank you. Great to meet you.
Thank you.
